Hamline University School of Law
First of all, I’m not sure if this is one of those ‘I am a Prince in Ethiopia and all I need is your bank account number and I will wire you my family fortune that I am trying to get out of my war torn country’ type e-mails, but I received this in my inbox today. I am going to treat it as legit:
Hello, first off thank you for taking the time to read my email. I have recently applied to several local law schools and so far been accepted to hamline. I have read a lot of conflicting information about fourth tier law schools. Can you clear this up for me: will it be harder to get a job or result in less opportunities by attending a fourth tier? Or is it what the student makes of it (like getting published and top ten percent of class) that matters? Any response you can give is genuinely appreciated. Thanks, Sincerely,
This is exactly how the email appeared. I have made one edit in that I removed a space in front of the word “like” in the second to last line.
Honest.
I don’t know what to tell this person, and frankly feel a little under qualified to offer any advice. So I leave it up to you guys to discuss. I don’t want to offer any advice that could wind up having some kind of butterfly effect and send him or her down a terrible path in life, i.e going to law school, hating it and not being able to find a job, or not going and regretting it for the rest of his or her life. My gut reaction is this is a choice our e-mailer has to make on his or her own, but feel free to chime in.
My advice would be not to attend law school unless you are receiving a serious, if not complete scholarship, especially from Hamline. Despite the fact that there is always a possibility that with the right work ethic, intelligence, and a little luck, you can land a good job, that is far from certain or even realistic at this point. In an attempt to be realistic, you have to consider the distinct possibility that you will not be employed for some time after graduation and that when employed, you may only make $40-50,000. That is not much money if you have $100K+ in debt (which equates to anywhere from roughly $1,200 – 2,000 monthly payments). However, none of these comments are new and my bet is that this potential law student heads to school in the fall despite the risk.
Hey, why does it smell like gasoline all around this blog post? And what’s this large box of matches doing here?
I’ll say the same thing I’ve said before . . . this person needs to seriously consider why they want to go to law school.
The degree will not pay for itself. It will cost you most of your life to pay off the debt. You will sacrifice the freedom you might have otherwise had to travel, because you have to make sure that wherever you are going, you not only have a job lined up, but a job that will pay enough to cover your student loan payments. Once you find a job, you will feel trapped, because even if your employer underappreciates you, you cannot simply pick up and find another.
I am glad I went to law school, because I’ve found the degree has a great deal of intrinsic value for which I am grateful. But it is a privilige, and that is how we should talk about it. America or not, this is not a luxury that people can afford because it’s interesting or trendy.
I agree, Patrick, that this person needs to make this decision on his/her own, but they need to make an informed decision. I wasn’t aware of how difficult things were going to be when I graduated. I probably would have enrolled in any case, but at least I wouldn’t have been blindsided.
With regard to post-grad employment prospects, I would ask whether you are willing to work outside the Twin Cities (or any major metro area). If so, your employment prospects are much better. With four law schools and a stagnant legal economy, the Twin Cities has an extremely competitive legal job market. However, the competition for jobs outside the Twin Cities is not as intense, and the legal job market in South and (especially) North Dakota is actually fairly robust (consider the size of the states). Starting jobs in these states usually pay in the $40-60k range, so the debt remains an issue. But generally, the larger your window of potential post-grad employment, the better.
Call the Hamline Career Development office and ask how many 2L’s got OCI offers for this summer. Also ask how many of the class of 2010 currently have job offers that require a JD. My guess is that they will refuse to tell you because I have heard that the Hamline employment numbers are horrible. I don’t even know if any of the big ten mpls law firms even interview at Hamline anymore, as I know my firm does not.
In normal times, the general effect of the status of the law school on career prospects was best documented in John Heinz, et al, Urban Lawyers, The New Social Structure of the Bar (U of Chicago Press 2005).
But now, unless you are irrevocably committed to going to some law school, a good read prior to making the decision is Richard Susskind’s The End of Lawyers? Rethinking the Nature of Legal Services (or find him on a web video summarizing his book.)
Then it’s time to consider the plusses and minuses, the risks and the benefits. They have to be tailored with your situation in mind but also with the future of the legal profession in mind. Think not just about your first job out of law school but about the next 30 – 40 years, which is how long you’ll be amortizing the direct and indirect costs of going to law school over.
I graduated Hamline 15 years ago, top twenty percent. I believe I received an excellent legal education, but in the graduating class, only one started at a big firm right out of school. Since then, several others have moved into some of the big firms. Seriously, if you are not number one, you’re not likely to get a first look. The clients that the big firms attract are far more impressed with tier one schools than is rational. As a solo, there is little I relish more than facing and defeating the Harvard grads at a big firm. But if you’re not going to like self employment, you may want to go in a different direction.
I believe the issue is: do I have a strong desire to be a lawyer? If so, then Hamline and the other 3 law schools are appropriate choices. With all schools, the student will have a great deal of debt and the economy is dictating that salaries are stagnant or falling. The salary problem for graduates is universal–not limited to Hamline.
I think that Hamline is a fine school and I am a proud graduate.
I received a great education at Hamline. The focus at Hamline has traditionally been on public interest. That was certainly what drew me to it. (I got into Mitchell as well.) There are many great Hamline attorneys out in the community working as public defenders, legal aid attorneys, assistant county attorneys. While there may not be as many HUSL grads as UM grads in the large law firms, most of the big firms do employ Hamline grads and there are a good number of Minnesota judges who are Hamline alumni. Furthermore, many of the small, medium and solo law firms are made up of proud Hamline grads.
I submitted this question and I really appreciate the post and responses. Yes, my question is genuine! Since submitting I have looked at the law schools employed by Minnesota’s largest law firms and it appears each of the four are represented (although not evenly distributed). This was a glimmer of hope in favor of attending Hamline. However, I have read a many blog postings around the net each completely annihilating third fourth tier law schools. So I have come to these conclusions: first, it is a historically difficult time to become employed as a law school grad. Going to a fourth tier will make it dually hard unless you are a top 1%er (even then, still hard). Second, some some say law school is more than about money. yeah, it has to be nowadays. But try telling that to the student loan companies who want the 120k you owe. The last thing I want is to be stuck 120k making 40-50gs a year. My third and final thought however may provide some resolution to this dilemma. If I go to the first school that accepts me and realize 2L that there are no prospects in the legal field and get stranded at Starbucks serving latte’s, I can at least send out a mass email reading: Starving law school drop out. Stranded in his hometown. Please can you send money to feed my cat. At least he deserves to eat. I think I will consider my last option : wait until next year and go for the U of M.
Whomever has it right: first, ask why you want to go to law school. The answer to that question will also answer whether you should go to a lower-ranked school.
Any of the four law school in town will provide a fine legal education. Hamline is widely respected for its ADR program in particular. Employment, however, is a different matter. Although each school has its strengths, the employment prospects between schools differ vastly out of proportion to the quality of education those schools provide.
Biglaw is particularly skewed. I ran a quick unscientific survey of a few local law firm web sites to see how many of their lawyers had graduated from UMN, William Mitchell, and Hamline (I omitted St. Thomas because the school is new enough that total law firm employment numbers would underestimate its graduates’ placement rate). Here’s what I found:
Dorsey: 78 UMN, 35 WM, 6 Hamline
Faegre: 74, 30, 0
Fredrikson: 84, 35, 8
Gray Plant: 57, 30, 8
Leonard Street: 54, 37, 13
Lindquist: 53, 39, 6
Robins Kaplan: 45, 28, 8
Totals: 445 UMN, 236 WM, 49 Hamline
The unfortunate reality is that there are not many Hamline grads at local large law firms compared to the graduates of the UMN or William Mitchell.
Law firm—let alone Biglaw—life is certainly not the only career aspiration for law students. There’s public interest law, public policy, government practice, and solo practice (but note that it may be *harder* to find a government law job than a law firm position). There are also careers outside the practice of law where a JD may help. And when comparing law schools, a full scholarship at a lower-ranked school may be a better choice than paying tuition for a more highly ranked school.
A prospective student who goes in for the right reasons with his eyes open will be happy with any of the local law schools. Someone who thinks law school is a ticket to a six-figure salary needs to do more research, because that’s not true anywhere but the Ivy League anymore.
I would rather move to Ethiopia than attend the Hambone University School of Law.
Hamline has 14 attorneys at Faegre
Guest: Thanks for the correction. I have no idea why I didn’t see any Hamline grads when I looked at Faegre’s website. It also makes more sense that Faegre would have at least a few Hamline grads.
UM has had a law school for over 100 years. William Mitchell has been around for over 100 years. Hamline has had a law school for about 30 years. That means the other 2 schools have had 70 more years to develop a reputation and fill partner slots in large law firms. Furthermore, attorneys like to hire attorneys who are alumni of their alma mater. It stands to reason that the more alumni a school has in a large firm the more alumni from that school the firm will hire. Note as well that Hamline has always had a commitment to providing an opportunity to students who, because of life cirumstances (ESL, 1st generation citizenship, etc.), might not have stellar LSAT or GPA scores. Hamline reserves 20 seats each year for students like this. I am proud that Hamline’s values take precedent over US News rankings. Moreover, please compare the student profiles from HUSL and WmM. Hamline: LSAT Median: 155, GPA Median: 3.47; William Mitchell: LSAT Median: 156, GPA Median: 3.49. The qualifications of the students are very similar, and have been for years. The difference is in name recognition. 100+ years v. 30 years – it seems reasonable that Hamline Law might not be as well known as Mitchell, and therefore not as highly ranked.
If you will look at the number of lawyers from any local school at local large firms, compared to the number that school’s alumni, you’ll see big law is not where most people work.
Assuming the numbers above are true, for example, we would be talking less than 3-4% of each school’s living grads currently work in local big firms. That is not a negative reflection on any school; nationwide stats show that the largest percentage of grads work in firms of 2-10 attorneys. That’s particularly true in MN where there are only a handful of “big” firms to begin with. No matter where you go to school, I wouldn’t put all of your eggs in the big law, big money basket. The odds are seriously against you. Go because you want to be a lawyer and are willing to take the median pay, and let big law big money be the icing on the cake if it happens.
Here is why I think the applicant should consider Hamline as seriously as all other opportunities. (disclosure–I am an occasional adjunct instructor at Hamline)
I built more life-long personal and professional friendships at Hamline than the people I met from the other programs. Aside from the obvious personal benefits, those relationships are pure gold when you are trying to build and grow a practice–at any kind of firm.
This is a sample of one person, but a finding that I had affirmed for me several time over. By the time I graduated from Hamline in 1991, I had clerked at two local firms and at the AG’s office, and had thus met and worked with several students from the other two (at the time–before St. Thomas) programs.
The U grads that I met, perhaps owing to the highly competitive nature of the program and its students, didn’t form a wide circle of friends among their classmates. I remember one very personable Minnesota grad that I met during the AG’s office clerkship who went on to work at a large Atlanta firm. She said that she formed exactly two friendships with fellow students at the U, and that her experience was not at all abnormal. Golly, I remember thinking, she’ll probably get a great offer, but what a shame.
At that time Mitchell was a night school. People had other jobs and often families. The more social aspects of the Mitchell program in those days was not as robust as Hamline’s.
I don’t know for sure about Hamline’s selection criteria, but I’ll bet they look for qualified people who are a good fit with its highly engaged, interactive program of study. Hamline gave me the very best referral and client development network that any young lawyer can have. It’s a network that would serve me for the rest of my career–whether I worked in a large commercial firm or in a small retail practice.
There are lots of good comments here, but the central point is this: if being a lawyer — doing the tasks that lawyers do in all of the myriad places lawyers work — appeals to you, you have a good reason to go to law school. The cost will be high, both in terms of lost income and debt, but you will be setting yourself on a course to longer term career satisfaction. If you want to make money, there are less expensive ways to do so. Particularly in Minnesota, there are proportionally fewer opportunities to make big money and the competition is very high.
I applaud you for making this an intentional choice. There are, indeed, many dissatisfied law grads from all law schools , a number of whom may have defaulted to going to law school for lack of a better idea. But, there are also many who truly enjoy what they do. You may not know which person you will be, and attending law school is an expensive way to find out; however, if you have a strong desire to try it and do it with eyes open, you are already better prepared than many.
Summer Associate Class for a large Minneapolis firm based on law school attendance:
8 – Minnesota
2 – Chicago
2 – Iowa
2 – St. Thomas
1 – Harvard
1 – Michigan
1 – Wisconsin
Hamline did not place a single student in the class.
[...] 28, 2010 by Mark Cohen Earlier this week, we had a post on this blog entitled, “To go to Hamline or not, what do you think?” The post engendered a lot of comments, some pertaining to the relative merits of going to [...]
I am a Hamline Grad and here is what I have learned: If you want to be in a large prestigious firm right out of law school, you will have more difficult time securing that position with a Hamline degree. However, I had no desire to work for a big firm. I did quite well in college and law school and have an excellent job. I have been an attorney for 12 years and I cannot recall the last time anyone asked me or my colleagues: what law school did you go to??? No one cares!!! What matters at this point is one’s reputation as an attorney. Are you good or not? If you do a good job, you will be recognoized for that – not the school you went to. I guarentee it!!! I have friends from the U who do well and some who do not. Same with Mitchell and Hamline. The “rankings” are laughably overstated. But again, if you want big bucks right out of law school, the U of M degre will help. If that is not what you are looking for – go to Hamline. My husband (also a grad)and I loved it and we are doing very well!! Heed the warnings of the others though: the debt is overwhelming at times and if you want to make enough money to pay off the debt, you do become slave to the practice. Hopefully you have parents who can help you financially? Good luck to you!
“If you want to make enough money to pay off the debt, you do become slave to the practice. Hopefully you have parents who can help you financially?”
So, if one does not become a slave to the practice, you will never pay off the debt? If a prospective student doesn’t have parents who will plunk down 100k for a TTTT law school education, they shouldn’t go to law school?
This sounds like a ringing endorsement, where do I sign up?
If you want a guaranteed lawyer job, go to one of the top 10 law schools. At my alma mater even the “class clown” gets a big firm offer. But, you will have to go out of state and you may never return.
HUSL ’91 is right about one thing — at top 10 law schools, you will be a competitator not a buddy. They are not “user-friendly” institutions. However you will be able to rapidly repay your student loans if you pass up the Porsche for a year or three.
That top 10 law school didn’t teach spelling, you competitator, you.
I am trying to decide whether to go to William Mitchell or Hamline. I start this fall. It seems like there are more networking opportunities at Hamline than WM, which is important in such a competitive market, and more focus on practical skills than theory, so as to land that job. But as far as everything else, I’m not sure. Most likely, I need to stay in the Twin Cities after I graduate. What’s going to give me the best edge? Classes start in less than two months. I’ve looked at both schools information and am still at a loss. The question for me is not whether to go to law school or not. My question, is where. Help??
Jacki-
I know you have decided you will go to law school. I think that is a mistake, based upon my observation of friends and acquaintences struggling to find jobs or pay their rent with their law degrees. I can personally attest to smart law school graduates from many different schools presently bartending, walking dogs, and working at Old Navy. But you already know all about that.
As far as which school of the two, I attended neither. I have practiced in Minneapolis for five years though, and have observed preference in the community for WM graduates. I also perceive WM as offering more practical skills training prior to graduation. I have met outstanding and poor lawyers from both schools. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.